My DD214

Veterans should be a thing of the past.

American Culture Vs Mexican Culture – Immigration

My last post discussed how I feel about Immigration and that I want to really focus my writing on the, so-called, “problems” concerning Immigration. My friend Jason has been the only one to post to the discussion so far and I want to elaborate more on my thoughts about the notion of an inherent “American culture” that he has made reference to on a few occasions.

The idea of American culture seems to be a loose term that is thrown around, well…loosely. It seems to me that there is a paradigm of American culture being an established phenomenon – an entity that has proven itself to be a force to on its own. To me, this is very dangerous and irresponsible.

The United States of America is two and a quarter centuries old. This is barely enough time for bacteria to create culture, much less humans. Culture is defined, loosely, by some anthropoligists as “the way of life for an entire society.” (the Wikipedia article is quite comprehensive) Culture includes such things as a society’s food, music, individual appearances, art, language and many more cultural indicators. The important thing that, I think, needs to be realized about the U.S. of A. is that all of the cultural indicators in our society are actually not ours. Every part of our culture is an adaptation on imported cultural indicators. This means that, inherently, American culture borrows from all the people that came here and is the sum of all imported cultures within.

This is why I disagree with the notion that Mexican Immigrants, legal or illegal, are “enforcing thier culture on Americans”. If anything they are adding to it; enriching it; making it better, more valuable – summing up to be greater than it would be without them.

Most Mexican Immigrants are illegal. I am not disputing this. What I do dispute, however, is that they are here unwanted and unneeded. Throughout history humans have proven that when there is an excess of a certain resource, consumption will increase as a result. When we find alot of crude oil, we increase our gasoline consumption; when we increase our burnable Watts per day, we leave our lights on longer or use the air conditioning. Well, over the past 15 years or so, there has been an excess in cheap labor. As a result, American Capitolism has increased its consumption on it and there are industries that, without those Mexican laborers, would fold and turn into ghost industries. Infrastructure with no subjects to take advantage of it. A toolbox without a mechanic. A kitchen without a cook. A kingdom with no king. That, in and of itself, is the antithesis of American Capitolism.

I say we need Mexican Immigrants. I think that instead of criminalizing them like we have Marijuana (we can all see how successful that War has been), we should be accepting them into our society with open arms. Lay out a pathway to citizenship. Let them pay into the system that they benefit from. Imagine if we had sent the Irish and the Chinese back to thier country of origin: the gold ruch would still be happening and we would still have railroad systems trying to connect the two coasts! With Mexican Immigrants we have the capacity to grow beyond our wildest dreams. They can help us just as we can help them.

Aside from the obvious benefits of embracing the Mexican Diaspora of the turn of this last century, there are other considerations as well. Such as the idea that only hard working, ethically driven Mexicans make the jump (pardon the pun) to American civilization. Mexicans who dream of a better life for thier children. Mexicans who want to become educated. Mexicans who want to learn the language, pay thier taxes and contribute to this wonderful society come to this country. The ones that don’t want to come stay in Mexico. That means that (I must thank Carlos Mencia for this idea) the United states has all the best Mexicans! The best Englishmen left the Brittain for America. The best Italians, Germans, Swedes, Frenchmen, Spaniards, Japanese, Chinese, Dutch, Polish, Russians, Irish, if I’ve missed anyone I apologize. And as far as Africans go (once again thank you Carlos) we got the best ones. Since thier cousins sold them into slavery (which is pretty messed up and I wouldn’t want to go back to a place like that either) they have had nothing but problems. Eastern Europe hasn’t been able to win a war since we left! The point is that everyone should watch the Carlos Mencia Live DVD and realize that he makes an excellent point – only people with vision and imagination realize that this is the best country in the world. So they come here to join and reap the rewards. We work harder and produce more than any country in the history of time because we will take anyone. If we stop now we will doom ourselves.

I will end this article with a short story of a Illegal Mexican immigrant that I know. For our purposes we will call him Juan.

Juan is about 65 years old. He has two jobs. He doesn’t have any degrees and he is an unskilled laborer. He has two different jobs at two different restaraunts. Today I learned that, on average, he works a 72 hour work week. All manual labor. He bought a house four years ago in one of the most desirable parts of South Minneapolis. His house has gone up in value at a steady rate of more than 4% per year.

I don’t know about you, but to me, he doesn’t sound like someone who is lazy, worthless or incompetent. To me he just sounds too busy to enroll in ESL classes. He’s too busy WORKING and PAYING PROPERTY TAXES! Which is something that many natural born American Citizens can’t seem to get motivated enough to do.

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5 September, 2006 8:07 PM - Posted by | LEGALIZE IT!!!, Music reviews, Pat Robertson Watch, We don't need no educations

29 Comments »

  1. Do you accept the $10 billion a year in costs for illegal immigrants–$26 a year if they were all given amnesty?

    This is from a couple different Mexians (who come up to buy some computers from my work for the past 10 or so years)….

    The illegal Mexicans that come into the country at the border are Mexico’s poor and uneducated Mexicans. They are looked down upon by the educated and middle-class. When the poor illegals live in the US, they then in turn look down upon any Mexican that becomes educated and legal.

    The illegal Mexicans are illegal, and the businesses are also cheating the taxpayers and government by hiring illegal immigrants–which is why California passed a law to go after all types of businesses of different sizes who knowingly hire illegal immigrants.

    What happens is this: a business hires an illegal immigrant so the business doesn’t have to pay taxes to the govt. He then is actually turning away LEGAL poor americans who are willing to do the job, but he won’t hire them because then he’d have to pay taxes, which WE end up paying.

    You have to ask yourself: Does the cost outweigh the benefits? I see the costs a growing concern if you want to give amnesty to all the illegal immigrants. Money that can be spent better elsewhere.

    Comment by Jason | 6 September, 2006 12:47 AM | Reply

  2. As far as your cost analysis goes, It costs me almost $8,000 per year just to provide myself with housing. That’s alot of money for me. If I were to follow your line of thinking – illegals cost SO much so we should get rid of them – I would be homeless. The fact of the matter is that illegal immigrants put into the system far more than they could ever take. Well, that’s not true either – if they revolted they could take alot…

    As for your estimation of the opinions of others concerning the worth of illegal immigrants. Who the hell cares what people think about them? I mean really? This is your big concern? Whether or not other people think that the people immigrating from Mexico and other Central American countries are “looked down upon”? And of course they’re uneducated. They’re coming from poor and, largely, uneducated upbringings. Countries with political systems even more corrupt and upper-one-percent minded. Absolutely these people are uneducated! Does that mean they’re worthless? What are you saying here?

    As far as all of the money you talk about the U.S. Government spending on illegals and such…that’s kindof a different topic but I’ll brush on my opinion.

    I think that the money that can be raised by illegal immigrants far outweigh the costs. Pure and simple. There are rules and by-laws written that are meant to deal with these issues. Such as an amnesty fee. This was actually instituted by the U.S. a few years ago and it is no longer accepted. After an illegal paid a $1,000 amnesty fee, they were forgiven and allowed to proceed with thier path to residency and eventually citizenship. Lets see here…12 million illegal immigrants…times 1,000…just a sec, let me grab a calculator…carry the 1…that’s $12,000,000,000.00 or $12 billion dollars right there. And when they’ve achieved residency after a short 3 – 6 months of paperwork and beaurocracy they’re…anyone?…anyone?…paying taxes and social security! Woooo Hoooo!

    That’s how I feel about that.

    Comment by willcharlton | 8 September, 2006 12:26 PM | Reply

    • I encourage you to check your numbers. San Fransisco is a prime example of illegal immigrant problems and others trying to fit the bill. Yes, there are many quality people coming and working hard to hold their own. However, there are many that choose to come and live off the system. California is broke and tuning into a welfare state… on the government. Although all of the problem is not immigration, it is a big chunk. There are ways of coming to the US legally. I know many from many countries who have. How about we adapt Mexico’s rules of illegal aliens… they come in they throw them out. This is the kind version. Also NO ONE may own land in Mexico unless they are of Mexican decent. Maybe we need to do this in America?

      Lets look at the bigger unbiased picture

      Comment by Rodney | 8 July, 2011 11:00 AM | Reply

  3. You have to remember: it is estimated that if illegals were given amnesty it would cost us $26 billion a year. They go on welfare, they are now eligible for many more government programs, etc. Even with all their taxes they pay, it wouldn’t help. And, giving them amnesty wouldn’t help businesses. As soon as they became legal, businesses who are screwing the system will fire the cheap legal labor, and still seek out the illegals coming across the border.

    In the past five years, I have seen parts of southern California go from good places, to horrible places to live because of the poor illegals/Mexicans. Take the town Escondido where my wife used to live. It was a clean town, very pretty. Now, it is a dirty town, has a drug problem, and looks like a poor town. If poor, uneducated illegals come to the states and suck off the government for any programs they can get and NOT better their education, they are just a waste. They treat America as they would their own country…with no respect.

    And until you experience their anti-American behavior, it gives you a different view.

    I am from the midwest as well, originally, and I know how little we can be exposed to different people–especially large groups of them. It is totally different in the midwest. In Iowa, for example–my home town specificly–the black community shuts away other blacks who get a seat on the city council, get a good educated and job, etc. Why? Here in California, they don’t care! I think the environment and exposure can effect the way different groups of people react and live….

    Comment by Jason | 11 September, 2006 9:24 AM | Reply

  4. You have to remember: it is estimated that if illegals were given amnesty it would cost us $26 billion a year. They go on welfare, they are now eligible for many more government programs, etc. Even with all their taxes they pay, it wouldn’t help.

    So, what you’re saying here is that even if all of those illegals were paying taxes, then we still couldn’t get anywhere. The basic flaw in your logic is this: If their taxes don’t matter, then ours don’t either… If even half of the illegal immigrants paid taxes (which, I think, is a conservative estimate), then at least they would be paying their own way. Half of the illegals paying taxes and being given the right to attain citizenship equals $13 billion that doesn’t come out of the pockets of existing taxpayers. The cost is cut by half… a hell of a lot more effective than most government plans.

    Regarding the idea of businesses firing legal immigrants in favor of illegals… you forget the right of a U.S. citizen to file a lawsuit in the civil courts of his country. The prohibitively high cost of fighting every discrimination suit brought against them by LEGAL citizens (with all the rights and liberties due to a citizen) would no doubt keep many businesses on the straight and narrow path of legal employment policies. Another thing to remember is that if they fire a newly-legal citizen in order to hire cheap illegal labor, that new citizen might be bitter, and might very well report the company for the same policy that allowed him his start in this land of opportunity. An unpleasant thought for a business owner. Again, the high cost of fines would keep them on the path of righteousness.

    More later.

    Comment by Clay | 11 September, 2006 12:19 PM | Reply

  5. Another problem I see in your argument, Jason, is that you’re making unfounded inferences regarding new citizen-immigrants and social welfare programs. You seem to think that once these programs become available, every single immigrant will run to thier nearest welfare office to get free money.

    One cool thing that has to happen in order to attain citizenship is you have to attend classes that teach you about how our government system works. Which means you’d understand that as a taxpayer, it doesn’t help any other taxpayers or any other fellow citizens when you unneedingly go on a social welfare program. And as a new citizen of this country, it wouldn’t benefit you, or anyone else, if you (as an able-bodied person) were to go on welfare. It goes against the very reason they came here – to make better lives for themselves.

    I’d also like to take this time to point out that those illegals that DO pay taxes do so without representation in legislation. In other words, taxation without representation. In the American system of government, this is a very bad thing. Alot of illegals do pay taxes and have no say or sway as to where that money goes or who gets it. Very bad.

    Comment by willcharlton | 11 September, 2006 8:14 PM | Reply

  6. If poor, uneducated illegals come to the states and suck off the government for any programs they can get and NOT better their education, they are just a waste. They treat America as they would their own country…with no respect.

    This statement implies, wrongly, that the opportunity to better their education is available. It is very hard to enroll in college without a driver’s license, social security number, green card- hell, no documentation whatsoever. The only option available for an illegal is long hours of work, usually with little pay and no benefits or job security.

    I have no doubt that there are illegal immigrants who came here solely to suck on the tit of the U.S. government’s social programs. But to assume that every person who comes to this country from Mexico must be in it to screw the U.S. taxpayer is wrong. Let’s look at it this way. If all of the illegals are out to screw us, then why hasn’t the entire population of Mexico come on over and, in effect, staged a peaceful economic coup d’etat? Hell, they don’t respect our way of life, so why shouldn’t they just overtake us with sheer numbers? The answer is that that scenario is ridiculous. Just like the idea that the Mexicans are trying to “wreck” our precious American culture, Beast that it is.

    The illegal immigrants at the center of this debate are trying to build our culture, not destroy it. The large majority of them came here to make a better life for themselves, and most of those are working ridiculous hours for peasant’s wages, keeping our nation running by doing the jobs that no one else is willing to do.

    Give them a chance. Re-instate the amnesty fee, and give these people a chance to become a working part of this nation. After all, they are consumers, right? And consumers are the basis of a capitalistic society, right? Surely they can contribute to the system, too.

    Comment by Clay | 11 September, 2006 9:34 PM | Reply

  7. In regards to lawsuits: Those who get fired don’t make enough to hire a lawyer. I just went through a settlement against my former company because of taxes (them not paying the feds taxes and screwing me for it), and legal hours behind that would have been more than the settlement. Lawyers are very expensive. If you notice, only large class action suits are brought against companies (ahem, Wal-Mart) that have a lot of money. Small companies are a wast to go after, and the workers can’t afford to sue them.

    Amnesty: If we give amnesty to all right now, how do we solve the illegal immigration afterwards? Illegals will still come into the country just the same as before, hoping they too get amnesty and automatic citizenship without going to classes, etc. The problem will still exist…just how to stop it?

    Comment by Jason | 11 September, 2006 11:57 PM | Reply

  8. The amnesty fee doesn’t make automatic citizens. The fee simply allows illegals to be allowed to start the process of becoming legal citizens. And not everyone who applies for citizenship will be given those rights. The problem of illegal immigration disappears when we make it legal. I know that’s a simplistic point, and obviously a much more complex scheme must be devised in order to nullify this issue, but the fact remains that there is no reason why we should limit immigration so tightly. I know, I know… NATIONAL SECURITY. But to say that a new worker brought into the nation, able to pay taxes and contribute to the community around him is a threat to our national pride, or self-image, or king-of-the-mountain mentality, is, well, retarded.

    We all came here from somewhere. Was America only the land of opportunity for our descendants? When was the cutoff date? When did we decide that only “we” deserve the liberty to do, say, and think as we please? When did we start denying the “newcomers” the opportunity from which we have all benefitted?

    Comment by Clay | 12 September, 2006 9:37 PM | Reply

  9. Here is a great example of over immigration:

    France. Remember those riots they had? It seems the African-Muslims were pouring into France legally. France has about a 10% or more Muslim immigrant problem, and most of them are jobless. True, the riots were sparked by some cops being racist, but it opened Frances eyes up to its immigration problem. It can’t afford to have them, because it has no jobs for them and they don’t offer any programs to give them money like the US does.

    If all illegals were just allowed to become legal, then we would have the same problem. It would take longer, because of our size, but it would happen.

    Also, your explanation of amnesty doesn’t really make sense, or perhaps I am confused. Aren’t all able to apply for citizenship and start the process already? Is Amnesty just a way of speeding things up and getting them in the door legally more quickly and more at a time?

    Comment by Jason | 13 September, 2006 9:38 AM | Reply

  10. in any case, past or present, amnesty has never meant citizenship. all that an amnesty fee would be is a formal agreement between Juan and the u.s. government saying that 1] juan came here illegally and admits he has committed a crime, 2] the u.s. government acknowledges its own internal shortcomings and wants to offer a way for juan to utilize a fixed system [given that we fix it when we offer this deal], 3] the fee does not grant citizenship. it is a declaration of one’s name, country of origin and immigration intention.

    once the fee is collected, the once illegal immigrant is offered a new chance to follow the path to citizenship [given that there is one in place].

    i encourage you to check out this website –

    http://libertyblog.com/archives/007661.html#007661

    in my opinion it is the policymakers who should be deported…from office. it is our elected officials who’ve gotten us all in this mess – immigrant and natural-born alike. our last few federal executive administrators dating back to reagan have undercut our naturalization and immigration budget to the point that it is now crippled and in need of massive policy prosthesis. it is the government that has laid the pathway for people south of the mex-american border to come here illegally. we’ve all but advertised to them our lack of enforcement. how can we blame these people for wanting a better life…like the author in the link above said, immigration is one of our most valuable natural resources.

    i also think it prudent to offer a perspective that we, as natural born americans, may not realize.

    yes. every person in the world has the right and option to apply for visas and citizenship. anyone in the world can wait two to six years for thier applications to be reviewed. but when your newborn is without food, you can’t wait that long. deporting these people, in many cases, could mean thier deaths. mexicans making a living wage do not come to america, starving ones do.

    also, sorry for my lack of punctuation and capitalization, my shift keys are not working…

    Comment by willcharlton | 13 September, 2006 12:46 PM | Reply

  11. I know many legal and illegal immigrants here in Columbus,OH. I do not know one who is taking money from a federal program. Most that I know work two jobs.Their employers are not paying them under the table and are paying taxes.Those who are illegal do not file a tax return but most likelywould be entitled to a refund.They are hard working family members who are taking good care of their children,their homes and are eager to be come citizens of the USA.They are proud of their home lands and celebrate their culture.They enrich the lives of those around them and contribute to their communities,their schools and the lives of their neighbors.

    Comment by Liz | 18 September, 2006 5:08 PM | Reply

  12. There are Mexican men next door to me. For months and months they have
    left by 7am to work, and return sometimes after dark. That has been their
    WHOLE life…until this weekend, when they suddenly became loud, and turned
    their music very high. I’m worried about them. A policeman came and said
    he couldn’t see, but he could “smell” what they were doing, and for them to
    stop! With the new border controls, I think they are losing their hopes for
    ever seeing their loved ones, or if they return to Mexico, they will not be able
    to return to work here. I just can’t judge a man for seeing his family suffer
    from poverty, and laying down his life to go to another nation to work and
    send money home.
    You will not be able to “take” what I’m saying next, if you have never seeked and found in your life–which I did. However, before, when I didn’t
    know there are still miracles, and that the Bible is true, I was very offended
    when some guy tried to tell me about these wild miracles. At 34, I checked
    out a group of believers and found that GOD is really powerful. Examples:
    #1. A family in the deep South were traveling to relatives up North, and had
    stopped at the nearest stop light to their home, and a fog-cloud came down
    and covered their car. They sat, waiting, for about 2 to 5 minutes. When the
    fog lifted, they were at the nearest stop light to their relatives in New Jersey.
    #2. A normal American man was told by GOD to go to a certain African
    nation. He went to his jetport and expected someone to give him a ticket, or
    to talk to him. When he went to the ticket-counter, he was embarrassed to
    have to walk away because the price of the ticket to Africa was so high. He
    then went to the jetport men’s room, and wondered what he had done wrong,
    and why nothing was working. When he went out from the men’s room, he
    discovered he was in the jetport of the African nation that GOD had chosen.
    A man walked up to him and said, “We’ve been looking for you! Come with
    me!” And GOD took care of everything from then on.
    In 1969, a Christian friend told me she thought I was going to get a new
    body from God, and and said, “No! I LIKE the one I have!” She said, “NO!
    This will be the kind that JESUS had after He was resurrected–where He could
    go through walls!” I know I did a double-take, but we were very busy, and
    I said, “Yes! I’m agreed!” Then I promply forgot the whole thing. About 20
    years later, I’m a widow, and my sons and I live in a condo, and I’m on the
    fifth step of an iron staircase, facing the front door, when my body just starts
    moving backwards…through the rod-iron railing, through a 9-inch cement
    wall, up through the kitchen ceiling and surfaced out to the second floor and
    stopped in front of the upstairs bathroom mirror with this silly look on my
    face…like, “Now, THAT is IMPOSSIBLE!” (NASA should change their approach).
    When I was dead on my wedding day in l969, these few believers prayed,
    and I came back to life after three hours with no brain damage, and GOD DID
    IT! A few years ago, I called that church and was told that” we are in the
    TIMES of the army of God in the book of Joel”…by prophecy.
    I got so fed up with worrying about Mexicans in America, that I just turned
    the whole subject over to GOD, and tried to think like the “faith of JESUS” with
    all HIS miracles by GOD’s hand. Then, I thought…what if these men ARE the
    “army of GOD” in Joel? The disciples of JESUS were called “unlearned,” and
    yet they believed GOD to do great miracles. If these Mexicans would seek
    the true faith of JESUS–not the ones who “hold the form of religion and deny
    the power,” GOD could take them every night, traveling like Elijah and Philip
    and Ezekiel, and they could be in Mexico, instantly, and then, GOD could take
    them back to work in the U.S. Joel 2:3 sounds like the army of God is very
    destructive, but if this army travels “backwards,” like I did, then, the desolation
    behind them would become like the garden of Eden before them. I hear that
    there are many desolate places in Mexico. If these Mexicans might BEcome
    the army of GOD in Joel, then Mexico could be lush and fruitful, and they
    wouldn’t want to stay in America, though I think they add to us! Tell me I’m
    dreaming, and I would have agreed with you before I learned new things when
    I was 34. I tried to prove the Bible wrong for over 40 years, and became very
    convinced that it is so much more than anyone can even imagine!
    Hope my words are not offending anyone without faith, but the only real
    solution I can think of is a spiritual one–that most Americans wouldn’t accept
    the reality of it.
    I’m done!

    Comment by CAROLYN SPRINGER | 19 September, 2006 2:25 AM | Reply

  13. OK. Carolyn. I’m all for saying what you want to say and everything, but the context of your post is a little ridiculous. Its 10% immigration, 10% Christian propoganda and 80% bull-honky.

    I will let this comment stay only because I need an example of what people SHOULDN’T write when trying to comment on immigration.

    I will bring up my anti-religion and atheistic standpoints in a new post in the very near future, but from now on, please refrain from testifying on focused articles.

    Thank you for your time and come again.

    Comment by willcharlton | 20 September, 2006 5:42 PM | Reply

  14. I found this entire list of arguments for and against Mexican immigration quite interesting. Additionally, I also thought the the argument of Carolyn to be a bit off the wall, and her faith in God is definitely striking. However, to you mr. Willcharlton, I must first say: your arguments, though not entirely practical, are very sound in theory. I think that they are well said. However, be careful as to your comments about a Living God.

    Thank you for this commentry, it has been very informative.

    Comment by Clearing my Throat reading | 5 November, 2006 11:31 AM | Reply

  15. Ummm…no. I won’t be careful about any comments about a living god. Mainly because I don’t believe in one, but also because this is a forumn about IMMIGRATION. The subject of god was brought to this blog, I didn’t bring it up. In fact, I tried to squash it because it is completely irrelevant. Also, please be careful about telling me what I may or may not comment on in my own blog.

    Either way, thank you very much for visiting. Next time, I wish you would comment on Immigration…you know…the topic of discussion…?…instead of promoting any unwelcome religious views you may have:-D

    Comment by willcharlton | 6 November, 2006 2:00 PM | Reply

  16. One thing you are missing is this. Illegal immigrants don’t pay taxes. If they paid the amnesty fee and such…they’d be legal. These are people that work at jobs that pay in cash “Under the Table” meaning no taxes are taken out of their pay. I have always been a white lower-middle class person. However, because I am not of a different nationality, I am not poor enough, etc…I have never been eligible for things such as financial aid for scholarships, housing assistance. I lived in a home in Oklahoma that was nearly a century old, had bad insulation, the siding was made of cancer-causing materials, and the foundation was slowly sinking into the ground over the years. We lived here simply because we could not afford anything better and were not eligible for government assistance. Some years later, not long before I moved out into my own home (bought and paid for with no assistance from anyone) a Mexican family was given what in this area is called a “HUD Home” meaning that someone tore down the original house on the lot, and made an entirely new home for these people…for free. It took me 22 years in this country to be able to own a home. And now that I do, a portion of my paycheck goes to taxes that fund government assistance to a bunch of people who couldn’t even take the time to go through the process of becoming an actual citizen.

    I was originally born near Los Angelas where I was one of 6 white children in my elementary school. I grew up with illegal immigrants, I have seen how the majority of them live. Nearly all of them were on food stamps, made more money than my mother and father combined, didn’t have to pay taxes, had government assistance with paying for their homes…and they still couldn’t buy their children a bed to sleep on. I tell you what they did do though. They bought beer and smoked weed every single day. They vandalized property belonging to their own neighbors, stole from them, etc.

    You are right about one thing…they spend money. They are a very small help to the economy in the fact that they circulate money into the system. And that is outweighed by the decreasing minimum wage due to cheaper undocumented labor.

    I consider myself an educated person and hate to make racist comments in a serious and hateful manner. Keeping this in mind, I don’t discount that there are good mexican people in America who have the best intentions when they come to this country. Just like there are Caucasion Americans who are also a drain on society. However, I think the best thing to do is try to close the flood gates and regulate who we let into our country because it really can’t take too much more of this without some kind of drastic and, more than likely, bad reaction.

    Comment by Matthew Reed | 29 January, 2007 2:20 AM | Reply

  17. O.K. Mr. Reed. I’d like to start by thanking you for your time and concern in this topic. Illegal Immigration is very important to me and I do appreciate that you took the time to add your perspective, insight and experiences. But now I must destroy them.

    You said, “One thing you are missing is this. Illegal immigrants don’t pay taxes”. I would like to point out, again, that Illegal Immigrants DO pay taxes. I say again: Illegal Immigrants DO pay taxes. They pay sales tax every time they buy something. They pay gasoline and cigarette taxes. If they buy a house, they pay property tax. And yes, they even pay income taxes. There have been reports of Illegal Immigrants who apply for Tax I.D. #’s just so they can prove that they’ve been paying Income Tax in hopes (and only in hopes) that it will spead the process of thier own personal Naturalization. Read the article through this link and see what I’m talking about.

    You said, “If they paid the amnesty fee and such…they’d be legal”. Well, where to start? If you would’ve read through the previous comments on this blog (what any self-professed educated person would’ve done) entry you would’ve read what my good friend Clay said “The amnesty fee doesn’t make automatic citizens. The fee simply allows illegals to be allowed to start the process of becoming legal citizens” as well as “in any case, past or present, amnesty has never meant citizenship”. So you can see that it should be well known that an amnesty fee is just a way to, in a sense, repay a debt for a “crime” committed. Given that the crime is leaving a country that can’t afford to pay them what they deserve. It should also be noted that, since we’re on the Immigration as a Crime topic, that in many cases the only crime committed is a child listening to his/her mother/father and obeying them when they say follow. Should we be deporting Illegals that came to this country when they were minors?

    Anyways, amnesty only means that they can start a legitimate process. Also realize that if 12 Million Illegal Immigrants paid a $1,000 Amnesty Fee, the U.S. Government would see a revenue of $12 Billion Dollars. This is a rough figure, but any way you stretch it, the revenue generated from amnesty fees could more than pay for the needed increase in I.N.S. spending as well as any border spending needed (as long as Halliburton doesn’t get the contract!)

    You said, “I have always been a white lower-middle class person…I am not of a different nationality, I am not poor enough, etc…I have never been eligible for things such as financial aid for scholarships, housing assistance”. Shame on you. You call yourself an American? What the hell kind of attitude is that? The fact that you said that actually disgusts me. “I’m not poor enough”? What? Since when do we, as Natural Born Americans set our sights on the Wonderful Glowing Orb of Government Assistance? That’s pretty pathetic man. Do you really think that life is supposed to be a cake-walk? Its tough out there man. That’s why we’re the best: it isn’t easy. I don’t think you realize how well off you are. If you’d like to see what people look like with real, tangible problems, go to your nearest hospital and watch the people who are trying to learn how to walk, or speak. People with birth-defects, crack babies. You want to complain about not being poor enough? Screw you man. Need I say more?

    You said, “…someone tore down the original house on the lot, and made an entirely new home for these people…for free”. Yeah. That’s right. They did. It’s a Free-Market Economy. Too many times this is forgotten. We all love this system except for when people get shit for free and the people isn’t me. Get used to it. Even playing fields are also called Socialist governments. We’re Capitolists. We do shit because it makes us money – period. You know what, maybe not. I’d be willing to bet that the organization to gave those poor, displaced people who didn’t have enough food a place to live was a faith-based organization. I guess they are worth something afterall. I guess I’d like to ask you why it burns your ass so much that they got help at all. Is it jealousy? Oh. I’d also like to point out that those Illegal Immigrants gave U.S. building contractors a job by moving into the neighborhood…just a thought.

    You said, “…a portion of my paycheck goes to taxes that fund government assistance to a bunch of people who couldn’t even take the time to go through the process of becoming an actual citizen”. Easy for you to say, you were born a Citizen. I had mentioned in a previous entry that Mexicans (it should also be noted that its not just people from Mexico we’re talking about here, its all of Latin-America) who earn a living-wage do not jump the border into the U.S., it’s the poor ones who cannot feed themselves and their families. You can’t be the land of opportunity if the only people you allow to Immigrate are people who are already well-off. Your statement: “…a bunch of people who couldn’t even take the time to go through the process of becoming an actual citizen” is very ignorant because these people are too busy WORKING to go through the Crucible of the American Naturalization Process. It takes years to go through the process of being Naturalized. Especially if you came here under dire circumstances. If you ask me, they should be granted asylum or refugee status.

    You said, “…I was one of 6 white children in my elementary school. I grew up with illegal immigrants, I have seen how the majority of them live”. Right. You’ve seen how the majority of them live. Yeah, the majority. How about rephrasing that one to say you’ve seen how some of the ones in Orange County live. Orange County is not THE text book example of how all Latin-American Illegal Immigrants got along in this country. I’m sure that, since you’re so educated, when you were in Elementary School with them you were hip ideas like the effects of both parents being bread-winners and drugs and alchohol on inner city youths. Your statements about your experience in L.A. are not arguments for policy change in Immigration and Naturalization, they are arguments for better parenting, social programs for inner-city youths, better school systems…the list goes on. All of which would be aided by tax dollars if we (Americans and their government) laid the pathway to success in a way that they can follow.

    You said, “I tell you what they did do though. They bought beer and smoked weed every single day. They vandalized property belonging to their own neighbors, stole from them, etc”. If I was your neighbor I’d probably be an asshole to you too. You obviously don’t have any respect for them now and probably didn’t show them any then. You were too busy focusing on how you weren’t poor enough or something.

    You said, “They are a very small help to the economy in the fact that they circulate money into the system”. 12 million mouths to feed; 12 million drivers; 12 million iPods; 12 million pairs of pants; 24 million shoes; 12 million people having children (natural-born Citizens); 12 million people holding jobs; 12 million tubes of toothpaste…they’re anything but small. They’re a force to be reckoned with. And that’s just the Undocumented ones.

    You said, “…decreasing minimum wage due to cheaper undocumented labor”. According to who? Minimum wage has been on the rise and, in my state of Minnesota, is set for another hike. Most agree that we, as a country, need to be at $8.00/hour very soon. I’m going to need you to find a reference for that statement. I can’t find one.

    You said, “…there are Caucasion Americans who are also a drain on society”. Got a mirror?

    I have a suggestion. Try to work with your neighbors instead of against them. Focus on the positive aspects they bring and you will see that the negatives are almost insignificant. Realize that you’re a white, lower-middle class American and don’t have to worry about whether you have to escape to another country in order to make a life for yourself – your ancestors already did that for you. Don’t try to take that away from future generations. Give thanks that we have Immigration – it’s our most valuable, renewable resource.

    Comment by willcharlton | 30 January, 2007 6:57 PM | Reply

  18. This is a very interesting and important conversation that is going on, but like many other hot topic conversations one we are not having collectively as a nation, hopefully this is a start.

    There are some-things i find troubling, with what is being said. Instead of the merits of immigration and how to handle this issue (immigration from all over, remember not only Mexicans are illegal and legal in this nation) I hear a lot of assumptions and racial slandering going on.

    I am sorry if you grew up in or around a place where poor people have turned your town into crap (for a better term) or went to school where you were a minority and you had no money and everyone was on welfare and drank and smoked pot (i am sure you are wrong about all of those things, or more importantly your interpretation of life is not how it truly was for people) but making those assumptions do not help in a civil debate they are simple tactics used to say how bad a group of people are.

    Immigration in this country is part of a large social concern. People come to this country for countless reasons (1) to escape persecution (2) because they like it better (3) They are recruited here because they kick #ss as what they do and our government wants them (4) MOST though come here for a better life. (since we are talking about Mexicans I will only use Mexico for my point) You can be the best You want to be, but when your country is economically broke working as a dishwasher in the US gives you more money, very sad. When you have a family to feed and it is better to risk your life (and no not think they do not risk their lives to get here) is better then what you have there is something to be said. My grandfather left Germany in a pickel container (1916) to come to America because it was better then what he had, as I am sure almost all of your people did too.

    SO what do we do: (ok the $21 million question)
    Well like everything it is not easy and will take time, money and an concerted effort on all of our parts. This will not solve all our problems, but it should help(there will always be the poor who wish to come her and make a better life).

    (1) We must invest in helping build the Mexican economy (if we don’t want them to come here they have to have a reason to stay at home). Yes we have to increase our investment in Mexico, not to own it but to help build an infrastructure to sustain a viable economy.

    (2) Invest in real community based programs to address crime in America, this will help with illegals and our own citizens. Instead of being retroactive on crime we need to be pro active. (A) Make sure kids go to school (ALL if you are young and here get to school) what is the worst that will come of it? We will have children around this world educated, not seeing a down point, the more educated you are the better you are able to solve problems. (B) more beat patrols, cops out of the cars, meet the people they are protecting. (C) Give kids a place to go after school so gangs (any kind) are not an answer. Mom and Dad may not be home, for MANY reasons, the kids whoudl not see a gang as an answer. (D) destroy massive slums and rebuild the with homes, parks and make intercity a place to live as a community not survive as a person. (E) Fund community action comminties, to welcome people and help each other know each other, have a better relationship with the cops, and local, state and federal government. The community knows what it needs best not a one size fits all from DC.

    (3) Finally provide a road to citizenship to those who want it (and if they stay we welcome them into the fabric of our society as an important thread) or amnesty and an opportunity to those who want to go back to help build a viable Mexico for them self’s and the rest of the country.

    So before You start going off on the price of all of this, let it be known we have a choice, we can look at life in a monetary way (what will $ get me) or like those who came before us and built this nation, (I need to spend $ so those who come after me have a better life even if that means I make sacrifices). If we are unwilling to give up some luxuries in life (sacrafice) what is the point of our lives? You wont take it with you, but our place in history of being the greatest generation (not because of war) because of our humanity will be solidified like never before. The time is now our action is now, future generations will look at this point in history and what will it say :

    “The greatest generation, in the riches nation in human history gave of them-self above an beyond, and for that, love and adoration is all we can offer. You changed the world for the better not because it was easy but because you said you would.”

    -0r-

    “They had an opportunity to do it, and they failed. Their lives were greed and selfishness, we are ashamed to be their off spring. They have left us this mess and now we must clean it up.”

    Comment by David | 11 February, 2007 4:58 PM | Reply

  19. This is what bothers me,: The radical groups that organized those marches. Those professors are educated people that direct the uneducated masses at their whim, They will reconquer the Southwest ( their final goal by demographics, electing their own, and voila ! an extension of Mexico, with corruption and 3rd world mentality.

    NewsWithViews.com
    “You (gringos) have spilled enough of our blood, now it’s your turn to bleed, you [expletive] sub-human beasts.” So said an editorial in the University of California Irvine’s Hispanic LaVoz Mestiza. Professor Gutierrez, employed by the University of Texas, founder of La Raza said, “We have got to eliminate the gringo, and what I mean by that is if the worst comes to the worst, we have got to kill him.” Now that isn’t very neighborly. A Chicano organization called MEChA wants to take over much of the US Southwest, an area they call Aztlan. Their motto: For the race everything. For those outside the race, nothing. Other similar groups include: The La Raza Unida Party, Brown Berets de Aztlan, OLA (Organization for the Liberation of Aztlan), and the Nation of Aztlan. These are radical organizations that can be found in many American high schools and most colleges. They hate America and love its enemies. They are brimming over with race hatred, anti-Semitism, and a history of communist leanings and communist support. They have an irrational anger aimed at their stupid benefactors. Recent mass marches have emboldened these people who do pose a real threat to this nation. Many are illegals and profess their allegiance not to the United States where they live, but to the authoritarian corrupt state of Mexico.
    Why are these Chicano groups willing to use violence, kill the gringo, and steal his home and land? Here is what Lou Dobbs has to say: “There are some Mexican citizens and some Mexican -Americans who want to see California, New Mexico and other parts of the southwestern United States given over to Mexico. Judging by the recent filling of streets with anti US Mexican flag wavers. A revolution is taking place while the spectators watch

    Comment by teresa moore | 14 February, 2007 3:33 PM | Reply

  20. What a collection of nonsensical drivel.
    Illegal immigrants are just that. ILLEGAL. They are here illegally, and should be rounded up and deported.
    Notice that I made no mention of race here? THAT’S BECAUSE IT ISN’T AN ISSUE OF RACE, DILLHOLES!

    Comment by Spilamus | 11 April, 2007 2:50 PM | Reply

    • HOW COME AMERICANS THINK ITS PERFECTLY FINE TO GO TO MEXICO AND STAY FOR VACATIONS OR EVEN TO LIVE….. BUT MEXICANS COME TO AMERICA TO MAKE MONEY FOR THEIR FAMILIES AND THEY ALWAYS GET BEAT DOWN! THATS BULLSH*T
      THEY HAVE A RIGHT JUST LIKE ANY OTHER COUNTRY DOES…

      Comment by NICOLE GARCIA | 23 March, 2010 12:26 PM | Reply

  21. 1) U.S. politicians are courting illegals because they see a huge voting bloc (ironically created by their inaction). They want to give citizenship to people here for a job, most of whom could not care less about the United States.

    2) Mexico began recognizing dual citizenship in 1995, hoping to influence our political system. Since then they have actively promoted illegal immigration while reminding their countrymen, “Wherever there is a Mexican, there is Mexico.” Univision is currently encouraging green card holders to get U.S. citizenship so they can vote. Many didn’t before out of loyalty to Mexico.

    3) The melting pot doesn’t work so well when you get 10 million people from one country in a period of ten years. The melting pot is predicated on the English language. It’s the one thing everyone had in common. Yet American hispanics who don’t speak Spanish are made to feel ashamed by new arrivals. Little wonder then they are assimilating at a slower rate than past immigrants.

    4) The educational level of immigrants does matter. Economic studies by the Federal Reserve show educated immigrants and their offspring are a net gain to society while uneducated immigrants and their immediate offspring are a net loss.

    5) Business people want illegal immigrants here because they reap the economic benefits. The common taxpayer is left paying more, for less.

    6) The children of illegal immigrants born here are American citizens and should receive an education like everyone else. In fact, it would help them assimilate, Unfortunately, they arrived in such large numbers they overwhelmed the system. Worse, the schools the majority attend are in poor areas where they are least equipped to deal with their numbers and needs.

    Comment by Mike | 2 January, 2008 10:25 PM | Reply

  22. MEXICANS ARE HORRIBLE DIRTY IMMIGRANTS!!America is not their country! THEY COME TO THE UNITED STATES TO CROSS THE BORDER TO GO TO WELFARE AND HAVE TOO MANY KIDS SO, WELFARE WILL PAY THEM!! THEY’RE DIGUSTING AND CAUSE TOO MUCH TROUBE!THE UNITED STATES NEED’S TO GET MUCH TOUGHER ON THEM AND NOT LET THEM IN AMERICA!THAT’S THEIR F***** PROBLEM THAT THEIR COUNTRY IS TERRIBLE TO THEM!
    THE US GOVERMENT IS GOING BROKE BECAUSE OF THEM!THEY ALL NEED TO BE THROWN BACK INTO MEXICO!

    Comment by Holly | 3 March, 2009 1:06 PM | Reply

  23. I’m afraid that you haven’t really put much thought or analysis into the notion of culture. There is most definitely an “American Culture”. It is a culture that has exported many of its inventions and trends to the rest of the world. Some simple examples: Music – Country and blues….distinctly American. Movies – Uniquely invented with a distinctive Hollywood culture. Language – Several dialects of English, to include NY / northeast accents, southern accents, African American accents, etc.

    Haven’t you noticed that in the past, no matter what culture an immigrant came from, their children and grandchildren usually ended up being distinctly American in their philosophy, behaviour, likes and dislikes? In other words, you could no longer tell that they were from a foreign country or different culture.

    Unfortunately, many immigrants today do not want to be American – they simply want a piece of its wealth. More often than not, immigrants today end up making money here and then reaturn to their native country in order to live like kings. Others seek to transform American into their native country. It only add insult to injury when they are ILLEGAL imigrants

    These are the immigrants that I despise and reject. I look upon them as foreign invaders and parasites.

    Comment by Fred | 4 June, 2009 11:06 AM | Reply

  24. I’m white female.mexicans are good people hard workers and very respect.we are all gods people. They just want a better life. Make all of them citizens

    Comment by tracey | 17 November, 2009 1:33 PM | Reply

    • i AGREE WITH YOU TRACEY! AND fRED MOST MEXICANS I HAVE EVER KNOWN DO WANT TO BECOME CITAZENS BUT THEY CANNOT RISK HAVING THEIR FAMILIES ALL CROSS OVER THE BOARDER AND TAKING A CHANCE OF GETTING CAUGHT! NO ONE EVER STOPS AND THINKS ABOUT WHAT IT WOULD BE LIKE TO BE IN THEIR POSSITION… WHAT WOULD YOU DO IF YOU WERE STRUGLING TO PUT FOOD ON THE TABLE U DIDNT HAVE A VEHICLE TO GET AROUND U Barely HAD A ROOF OVER YOUR HEAD AND THE PRESIDENT WAS MAKING IT WHERE YOU COULDNT MAKE ANYTHING OVER $ 30 A WEEK???? THATS WHAT MY HUSBANDS SITUATION WAS AND HIS BROTHER CAME WITH HIM…. THEY LOST THEIR FATHER AND HAD TO TAKE CARE OF THEIR MOM AND 5 SISTERS! CAN YOU IMagine how hard that would be???? Now that my husband has been here for 7 years he has been able to provide a new home for them and has saved thousands in the bank…. it is very hard to live over their and its not their faults that they have to come over here to live for a while so all the people who have a problem with Mexicans need to just F****** deal with it!!!!

      Comment by NICOLE GARCIA | 23 March, 2010 12:34 PM | Reply

    • Yepp Mexicans are good people.. Im 100% Mexican and im SOOO proud of it!

      Comment by Nubia Castro | 25 April, 2011 5:27 PM | Reply

  25. you say the mexicans are only taking up cheap labor that wouldn’t be utilized in the USA otherwise? Well with the amount of unemployed in the USA im sure a lot of americans would love to take that job that these ILLEGAL mexicans took.

    Comment by Kryptonite | 27 November, 2012 3:44 PM | Reply


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